Conversations with Dr. Cowan & Friends | Ep 1: Dr. Andy Kaufman

Andy Kaufman, M.D. is a natural healing consultant, inventor, public speaker, forensic psychiatrist, and expert witness. He completed his psychiatric training at Duke University Medical Center after graduating from the Medical University of South Carolina and has a B.S. from M.I.T. in Molecular Biology. He has conducted and published original research and lectured, supervised, and mentored medical students, residents, and fellows in all psychiatric specialties. He has been qualified as an expert witness in local, state, and federal courts. He has held leadership positions in academic medicine and professional organizations. He ran a start-up company to develop a medical device he invented and patented.

Transcript

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Great. So, welcome everybody to this edition to The Dr. Tom Cowan Show. I am extremely honored to have my friend Dr. Andrew Kaufman with me today. Usually, when people do intros, they say, "Dr. Kaufman went to MIT," and dadadadada, and I don't really like to do that. I would rather, Andy, if you're okay, I would like to describe my interaction with you, and then you can correct it if you didn't hear it like that.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, I think that's a lot more meaningful way to do it, Tom. So, I appreciate it.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Great. Okay. Let me go. So, the first thing I would say is if this situation we're in now were a Shakespearean play and we're looking back 10, 20, maybe even 100 or 200 years ago, and I must admit, I haven't decided yet whether this is a comedy or a tragedy, although I think it's more towards the latter, but there is some comic elements in it.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
One thing I'm sure of, whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, and we can all make our own guesses to who the villain is, but I could tell you, I know who the hero is, and that's Andy Kaufman because I don't know anybody who's been able to articulate a clear and concise understanding of what's happening like Andy. So, that's why I have appreciated his input so much.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
What my connection was, so I have a little bit of a different style than Andy, which is I tend to think things and think that I'm correct. I often have some evidence, but I'm not as meticulous a researcher, I would say. So, a number of months ago, I made a video, where I described that I was questioning and doubtful that actually viruses are pathogenic. I actually said that there's a different way of looking at illness, and I used the example of dolphins, and that if anybody went to a new place where dolphins were getting sick and you had the choice between they have a genetic disease or they have a virus or somebody poisoned the water, I think most of us would say it's probably there's poison in the water.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I then offered this possibility that these things we call viruses are the tissues or maybe the cells' way of excreting poisons. I've been thinking of that and had evidence for that for 20 to 30 years, but I must admit I didn't know the actual research on that. So, to my surprise, that video was seen and told by 50 to 100 million people around the world, even though I thought I was saying it to 20 people in a room of mostly disinterested people at the end of a talk on the heart.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, anyways, that's what happened. Then I thought to myself, "Wow! I got to deal with this." Then a few weeks later, a friend of mine sent me your first I don't know if you call it a webinar or something, and apparently, you had either heard that or something, and decided to see, "I wonder if this guy Tom is right." Then you did the work that I hadn't done. I had a little bit of knowledge about that. It was an unbelievable relief for me and support for me to have your input into this to actually fill in the details. So, I was extremely grateful for that.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, then as a result of that, I called you up and said something like, "Hi," or "How are you?" or something, and then I asked you how you came to this. It was very interesting what you said. There was two things that struck me, and I don't know if you remember this and, again, please correct me if you think I'm mistaken here.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
The first one was you said, "I don't say things publicly that I can't prove are correct." I thought, "Fair enough. There you go." The second was even more impactful for me, which was, "All I can say," and I'm paraphrasing here, "is my experience didn't support what I was told and learned in medical school." That was extremely important to me because I think we've all had that. Our experience of life doesn't actually match up with what we're told, but for some reason, most of us, we're told basically not to believe our experience. We're taught not to believe our experience.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
In my life, it's been so rare for somebody to say, "I was told something, but it doesn't square up with what I'm seeing, so I don't believe it or at least I looked into it." Those two things really I knew I was dealing with somebody who I could, A, learn a lot from and, B, as I said, became really the hero of the story. So, with that, welcome to my show and please correct me if I got any of that incorrect.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Oh, no. I mean, I think you got it all correct, and thank you so much for telling the story. I just want to add a little bit to it because when I came across that 20 minutes at the end of your heart talk video and you said a couple of things, and I think you did a followup webinar that I also saw. When I was watching that and you talked about this, I had some experience where I just suddenly knew that this was the truth of the matter.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I had the whole thing worked out in my head like almost instantly, and that is a very, very ... I've never had an experience like that before. I had an experience like that when I study something and then get to a point where it finally soaks in and I understand it and I have that moment, right? This experience that I had this time, I didn't do that. I had been researching things about viruses, but I didn't get to that material, but I just knew that it was correct.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Then for the next 48 hours, I spent every waking moment researching, and everything I found confirmed it. So, it's like whatever way that you felt certain about that truth and that knowledge, it was real. Even though you didn't do all the due diligence that I did about it, it still was real.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, it's like I think that speaks to a bigger point that gets to what you are referring to about how do we know what is right with knowledge, how do we learn to trust our own observations, right? I think sometimes it's referred as [tedicism 00:07:40] where you pay attention, use your own sense and your own critical thinking skills, and does that match up with the prevailing theories.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Another part of this is our intuition. I believe that that's not something that our culture allows us or motes us to really develop, but it is really important aspect, and I would say that my intuition was extremely strong in that experience, and it told me that this is truthful way of thinking about things, and it turned out that it was. So, there's a lot of lessons for all of us through this whole experience, certainly, in this little moment of a breakthrough that I had.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Great. I so understand that, and I've had so many conversations with my wife when I get to the point where I say, "I just know this is correct," and it's almost as if you're seeing a movie or you're seeing something. It's not quite a movie, but I see it in my ... I don't even really like the word mind anymore. I just see it and somehow I see it.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
She always says, "So, did you just make that up?"

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I say, "Of course. What do you think? You think I got this from somebody else? I mean, nobody else is crazy enough to think that. So, yeah, I just got ..."

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Not even [inaudible 00:09:13]

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah, right, because he contradicted himself all the time. So, but then you have to go back and say, because we all can dilute ourselves, right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Absolutely.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
We can go off and think things and when I think back in many of my books, I cringe because how could I possibly have thought that. I could tell you, though, every single thing, I think this is absolutely correct, every single thing I got wrong in any of my books, it's because I believed the dominant narrative too much and I had something go off in me that said, "This is probably not right," but no. Everybody thinks this, so it must be true and I just ignored that and I basically got tired of doing that because it keeps leading me astray, and I don't like being led astray so much.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Yeah. It's a really difficult thing because the more you drill down into the basic presumptions and paradigms of the current site of a narrative, the more you see that actually the evidence is not there, and they expect you have all this knowledge that's all founded. That's the foundational knowledge. Everything else is built upon that. Sometimes it's hard to even make the connection. It's hard to change the vocabulary, right? It's hard to always think things through.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, it's like this process of shifting to a different way of thinking about these issues, right? People are at various stages along that process. So, it's really hard to communicate about because I don't want to alienate people that are learning about this but are still accepting a lot of the mainstream paradigms. I want them to be able to also say that part of what I'm saying is still truthful based on that. You don't have to go into as deep of a level to question things that are presumptions of scientific principles like contagion and germ theory because it's hard to get to the point where you can challenge those things.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Right. I also agree. It's one of the reasons it's tricky is because the wording is all skewed towards seeing the world like that. We have lots of words that actually almost configure the way we talk and configure the way we think. You hear that when you hear about traditional people. They have 20 different words for water because they have so many different conceptions of what the water is doing, and who the water is. So, we don't have the words for that, so it becomes no way to conceptualize that or even communicate that.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, people vastly underestimate the power of language because we really think in linguistic terms, and our behavior is different based on the nature of our specific language that we are cultured to it. There's some very interesting research on this. One study, just to briefly bring up, is where they looked at retirement savings because there are certain powers that want people to save more for the future, and they looked at language differences and there are some languages that don't have verb tenses.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, in other words, like in Mandarin, I believe this is the case where there's no future tense. So, it turns out that in people who speak a language without a future tense have much more likelihood of saving money for the future because they can reference future in the present.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Whereas in cultures like ours, people, "No way, man. I want to buy something now. I don't want to save that money," right? So, it really has a profound influence on how you experience certain information. It's important to acknowledge that, and I definitely talked about many inversions of meaning.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
For example with the word germ, initially, really meaning genesis, new life, new growth, and now, it means basically something that will possibly even kill you or that invades you, right? So, there's powerful clues in these particular words and how the language is used.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, can you give us a sense of your process in this? How you went from, whatever, 25-year-old college student? I mean, for me, I was called Doubting Tom when I was 10. So, I tell the story when I was sent to watch a friend of my father's who was a well-known internist in Detroit. I was 15. He goes into the exam room and he examines this woman and says, "You've got a cough."

Dr. Tom Cowan:
She says, "Why do I have a cough?"

Dr. Tom Cowan:
He says, "Because it's the bad air in Detroit."

Dr. Tom Cowan:
She looks at him and says, "So, why don't you have a cough?"

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I started laughing. Of course, that was the last time he wanted me to follow him around. I always have a sense that this isn't the whole story here. So, I'm just wondering if you have a story if things happened to you or how did you end up or what did you see and how did you see it, and what happened.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Yeah. Well, I think I do have a better and better understanding of this. I have to say that one of the major forces that motivates me, this is just part of my personality, is justice. So, I'm very motivated by trying to correct injustices in the world. That's what really led me into medicine. I always thought about who are people that are neglected in terms of their health. That's who I want to work with, and that's what led me into psychiatry because people with schizophrenia and severe mental illness are very marginalized in our society and our culture.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
This subsequently motivated me to want to work in the correctional system and take care of people with severe mental illness who happen to be stuck in a jail, where no one is really looking out to them. It's a horrible place to be. So, all of my major decisions have been influenced by that angle or they've had some attachment.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
What happened is that as I started practicing medicine, and even as a trainee, I started to see that there were some injustices. The first thing that really hit me was about civil commitment. This is basically a law that allows a psychiatrist or some other doctor to basically incarcerate someone. They could put them in a mental hospital against their will in a locked ward, and based on their being illness and supposedly being dangerous to themself.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
There are situations where this might actually be appropriate to some degree, although I would say there are better ways to do it, but what I saw as that doctors were using it not for real extreme emergencies, but using it as a matter of convenience or a matter of routine or for the purpose of using police transport instead of medical transport because of financial incentives.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, that led me to question things and also be known as a troublemaker and have several people sit me down and tell me that I shouldn't be rocking the boat, essentially.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Because you we refused to do that or you didn't want to participate in that.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, I started off just questioning it, and I didn't want to participate, and then at some point, I refused to do it. I've gone through that evolution many times over as I've found injustices with psychiatric medications.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
At first, I was forced to prescribe them as a trainee because that was the standard of care, and then in all my subsequent clinical work, that was the main function of a psychiatrist, but as I uncovered that, one, first I saw the medicines were not helpful, and then I started realizing that they were harmful. This was when I scrutinized the research literature and then compared it with my own experiences. I started seeing that there was consistency here in those respects, but that's not what the main authorities of medicine were saying about it, but that's what was in actual research findings.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Can I have you flush that out a little bit? So, a person says they're depressed, and you hear this, and I know enough about psychiatry to know that antidepressants actually don't really work, but when you say they didn't work, what were you seeing there that made you think they didn't work because you do get occasionally people will say, "Yeah, I feel better," or something like that, but-

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Yes. Well, so for me, I want to look at objective outcome measures. So, in other words, something tangible that's improved in a person's life, right? So, if they're depressed and they can't function, they can't shop for groceries or take care of their kids or go to work, well, I want to see them resume doing those things, right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
If they have a horrible conflict in their important relationships in their life, I want to see that relationship improve, all of those aspects, and that's what I was not seeing at all. So, certainly with antidepressants, I never saw that. I don't want to give the impression that no psychiatric drug ever works in any person for anything good. There are some very limited examples, but they're rare and they're probably overused and overgeneralized.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
With antidepressants, no. I've never seen one person have a true benefit from an antidepressant. Quite frankly, all of the clinical trials, if you look at it as a body of evidence rather than picking out individual studies, you will realize that there actually is no specific activity of antidepressants to address depression.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
What I've observed in my experience that they do is they basically numb people's emotions. So, they become more apathetic and less emotionally intense, but they don't, as a result of that, don't improve their situation.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
In other words, they misinterpret the fact that I ... The way I would interpret that is they have a conflict or they have something that needs to be resolved in their life like, "I need to figure out how to deal with my children or my wife or my job," or "My job sucks," or whatever, "and I need to figure out how to do that." They misinterpret that as being depressed. You give them an antidepressant and then they just live with their job.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, the whole term depression is really problematic because, well, what is it? So, one of the things that I was doing is I was doing expert witness work. So, that allowed me to review just thousands and thousands of pages of medical records. Most of those were from primary care type doctors, but all of the medical records I review have to do with mental illness.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, I've seen thousands of times where you see a diagnosis of depression be made, but there's absolutely no depth to it at all. It pretty much goes like this. A patient walks into the office, says, "Doc, I'm feeling depressed." The doctor says, "Are you thinking of suicide?" They say, "No," and then diagnosis depression, and then a prescription for antidepressant of the day, and that's really all it is.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Now, I actually wouldn't even say depression isn't illness. I would say it's a symptom. It's a kind of a vague symptom because, well, what's the difference between depression and anxiety? A lot of people conflate those two things. Maybe they are together one thing. I don't know the answer to that at all, but it's important to get the details of a person's experience, but feeling depressed or even to the point of being suicidal and not able to motivate yourself to do anything in your life can have so many different causes.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Those causes could be purely physical, and they could be purely emotional or psychological or spiritual or they could be more commonly a mixture of all of those things. When you simply give the drug, you're not even acknowledging that those things exist. You're just saying that, "It's actually a brain problem, a brain chemistry problem and I'm going to correct the brain chemistry," but there's no scientific evidence with brain chemistry abnormality.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
We do know that people with Parkinson's disease get depressed. We do know that people with heart attacks get depressed, right? So, there could be a relationship there, but then what you would do is address the heart attacks and address the Parkinson's not numb out their emotions because if you're going to do that, well, you might as well just use alcohol or cannabis or opium because there's not that much of a difference and those things are probably more pleasant than Prozac.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Right. In fact, one could argue that it's an appropriate response to be saddened by the fact you just had a heart attack. Maybe there's some good in that that you might want to change what you do or how you eat or something.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, I firmly believe that our emotional experience is, for the purpose of giving us information, we need to fix our situation.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Right. It's a communication strategy.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Right. If we try to suppress or run away from that, then we're not going to learn the lesson, whatever that may be.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, then how do we go from that to Béchamp, pleomorphism, terrain, and maybe even I would love to hear your take on pleomorphism and probably a lot of people don't even know what I'm talking about with that, but I think it's a key and maybe that's the next step here.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, as I went through that process, I reached a point where I'm like, "I'm not going to prescribe any psychiatric medications with very, very limited exceptions." Then something changed. I started looking at other areas of medicine. I had this experience where I tried Dr. Kelly Brogan's protocol from her book, A Mind of Your Own, with somewhat a former colleague who was asking me for a referral and I said, "I'm thinking about that this could be a really good thing. You want to try it?" We both did this protocol together.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
That was the first time that any psychiatric patient, she wasn't my patient, technically, but anyone with a real psychiatric problem was completely cured 100%.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Wow.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
It happened within a couple of weeks, and we had to stumble around with some experimentation after that to determine that it was caused by eating wheat products like bread, and whether it's gluten or glyphosate or whatever, it doesn't matter, as long as she stayed away from that food, there's no anxiety, whenever she challenge herself with that food, the anxiety came back. This was a major aha moment for me because I didn't know there could be a cure for something like that.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
How many years ago was this?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
This was about maybe three to four years ago.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, not that long ago.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
No, not that long ago at all. That opened me up to saying, "Well, maybe there's ways to heal from all of these things that I was told that there isn't, and maybe there's a whole new science that I'm unaware of that would explain this, and I just started studying. I found certain people in the space that I thought knew what they were talking about and I started consuming their material, people like [Anne Barogan 00:26:38] and Jennifer Daniels, and others, and pretty much two solid years just studying all of that.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I was more focused on how do I work with people to help them or what things worked to help with various illnesses. Then when I felt like I had a pretty basic competency in that knowledge, I started thinking about doing consultations, but I also shifted into looking now more at some of the underlying science.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Germ theory came up because some of the people that I was listening to like Jennifer Daniels, she talked about Koch's postulates not being satisfied, and I had like, "Oh, I heard about Koch's postulates in medical school," and I familiarized myself with that and said, "Well, that's really interesting that for hepatitis C," and she might have mentioned more into other things. I'm like, "Well, they never satisfied Koch's postulates. So, maybe I should look into that."

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I came across Barre Lando, his channel Alfa Vedic, and they had done a show talking about germ theory, and I listened to that and I was just blown away. This was last November. So, it was before the current situation here. I was open to it, and I started looking into terrain theory at that time. I learned about pleomorphism and the cycle. I was exploring that. At the same time, I was actually doing a whole bunch of law research.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
It wasn't until after the pandemic situation hit that I really looked at viruses. So, everything that I've learned and been talking about the viruses is very new. I just felt like I had to understand what was going on and I saw. I had the suspicion when things were in China that it didn't make sense that they were doing all these crazy measures because, well, when did they do that before? Just something made my nose twitch about it and I'm like, "I want to see where they discovered this virus," and look at the papers.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I didn't know how to read those papers. I had to learn how to read them because they use their own language. Then I came across Stefan Lanka and Kary Mullis, and the rest is history, but I already did all this preliminary work before I was able to really open myself up to get to these deeper underlying areas.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
To be honest with you, there are other areas I haven't had the chance to really explore yet. I'm like what Gilbert Ling talks about that many of the foundations of the current molecular and cell biology that I learned at MIT are actually not correct, even things as fundamental as how DNA works, and genetics and epigenetics. I think that we really don't understand that in an accurate sense right now, but it's really, really hard to question it because it's such a fundamental thing as well, and how the cell works, what's the role of electricity. What about water? It was just, "Oh, everything has to be in water, but water has no role other than that, just providing a nice ambiance."

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Now, obviously, there's way, way more science to water, and water could just in and of itself be a healing agent, right? Actually, just from the amount of water, I find many of the clients that come to me are severely dehydrated and that's one of the primary causes of their problems. So, there's so much to explore here, and I'm still early pioneering this exploration, but that's how I came to the germ theory and the virus dogma stories.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. I mean, it's the same with me. There's this endless healing the onion layer. To me, it's all about asking myself, "How do I know that for sure?" In some ways, an uncomfortable question or at least it used to be, but now, at least for me, it's become a fun question because it's like I said, when you get to whether it's the listeria in the milk that's making you sick or the milk, I ended up thinking, "What difference does it make to me?"

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Right. Just stop with the dairy.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. You have the listeria, you kill the bacteria that's the milk, you stop poisoning the cow. It's no skin off my nose, which of those.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I just want to get to the right information that's going to help people get better, whatever it is.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
When I was doing that clinical research, that's what it was all about. I wasn't like, "Okay. Whatever. I'd be willing to try using this thing that I think was totally crazy because it could actually work," right? Then if I see the evidence that it works, then I'm like, "Well, there must be a reason it works," right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
When I went down this germ theory rabbit hole and discovered terrain theory, which I think much, much closer to the truth, I had this realization that, "Oh, my God! Almost all these natural healing approaches that I've learned about that are successful, they were all based on terrain theory."

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I didn't make that connection initially. It's not like these other people that are putting educational, they didn't say it that way, right? It wasn't like you go into terrain theory 101 or natural healing 101 in the university, but it's really profound. So, that matches up, right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
It's like so my understanding of terrain theory and what works in clinical medicine actually correspond there in agreement with each other now and I didn't have that experience with the theories in the allopathic medical model.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Got it. In fact, I don't know if you would agree with this, but I think even the people who are actually using what we would call terrain theory, they typically themselves don't understand that and they say, for instance, "I'm giving bile cleansing to stimulate the antibody so it gets rid of the viruses." You think, "Wait a minute." First of all, I did a whole riff on antibodies, but-

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Yes, I love that.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, yeah, it's very complicated, and it basically doesn't mean anything. Yeah. So, even it's that conceptual shift is hard for people to make. So, can you give us what is pleomorphism and what is the terrain theory in a nutshell?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Yeah. Absolutely. I can try that. Let me just add one thing to introduce that because I think that a large portion of people these days have actually gotten terrain theory-based treatment. They just didn't know it like you said, and anybody who takes bacteria like probiotics, that's a terrain theory treatment. You just didn't realize it, right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I think that's a way to really open this topic up to people because all of the modern research about the microbiome really is terrain theory and it's 100 years behind the introduction of it, but it's the exact same model, and it just hasn't gotten to the point yet where it's taken over as the main paradigm, but it's really hard to reconcile like how can bacteria be good and bad, right? It's a contradiction. So, it's got to be reconciled at some point.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Essentially, what terrain theory-

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I'll tell you, Andy, another terrain theory. You may not have thought about this is LDL. Now, I had a good friend who was doing a lot of research on cholesterol, and he actually wrote a paper called the benefit of high cholesterol. He demonstrated in a sense that high LDL is very protective against what we call infections.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, one of the ways of essentially poisoning people to make them more susceptible to what we call infections is to give them statin drugs to lower their LDL and then they get sick more often. In a sense, you could also call that eating butter terrain theory or eating bacon terrain theory because you're improving the very substances in us, which actually keep our tissues and cell membranes flexible and so not sick.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Absolutely. Cholesterol is one of the things that it's highly problematic, obviously, because there was this basically conspiracy between the government and the food industry and the pharmaceutical industry to make us think that cholesterol is causing all of these illness when, in fact, it's really the opposite.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Cholesterol is the starting material for so many things in our body. Every membrane of every cell and the membranes take up a large area of the brain. So, it's 90% of the driveway of the brain, and then all of your steroid hormones and vitamin D are all made from it, right? So, think about the function of all those things, and if you're deficient in those things, you're not going to be in good health.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Right.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I think when cholesterol got implicated as being bad because if you have an excess of toxins deposited in your blood vessel, they actually oxidize the cholesterol. When it's in its oxidized form, then it can do bad things because it could activate the clotting cascade or things like that or cause an inflammatory reaction or spread free radical damage, but it's not the cause, right? It's a bystander, just the same way the bacteria in an infection are not the cause of the infection. They're there actually for a beneficial purpose in that case.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
That's what terrain theory says is that illness is not caused by microorganisms that invade your body or are already in your body, but it's caused by a perturbation or a negative alternation in the terrain or the ecosystem of the body. That can occur a variety of things. It could be a physical trauma that damages your tissues and organs. It could be exposure to various types of toxic agents, which could it be radiation, electromagnetic or ionized radiation as well, and even a psychological toxic insult or a nutritional deficiency that your body can't repair itself or build itself properly.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, one of those things interrupts or damages the terrain of the body and that is the cause of the illness. What happens is that microorganisms are actually summoned by a process that we don't fully understand, but it involves your body systems. It's in conjunction with our immune system in other bodies, our circulatory system and such, and that microorganisms develop and differentiates specifically to respond to that particular type of insult.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
They go there to perform saprophytic function, to clean up the dead debris and to help the body repair, remove the toxins, and that's why they make secretions, like mucus and such because that's a way of getting those waste products out of the body. They create inflammation and swelling to increase the blood supply to that area, the brain nutrients and take away waste products.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
We might be uncomfortable during that process, but this is the rebuilding phase, the healing phase of the illness. The aspect about how our body summons these species of microorganisms is the pleomorphism that you are alluding to that basically there are these primordial forms of all these microorganisms, and there are few different names. Béchamp call them microzyma. They were also called somatids, and there's a couple of other names I can't think of at the moment.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
If you look under a microscope, a dark-field microscope where you can see live blood samples and look at a blood sample, you can see these, and they look like little specs of light. What happens is that these little specs of light or somatids, when the body calls upon them, there's some kind of signal, they start changing their shape, and getting bigger, right? That's what pleomorphism means is many shapes or the ability to change shape.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
They basically go through the cycle. It's known as the cyclogene, where they change shape multiple times and go through different stages. At some point, they become the terminally differentiated species that's going to go to the site of disease in your body and clean it up. There's very specific information about what's the right species for all these different disease situations that could occur in your body, and they could not only form all the species of bacteria that we know about, but all the species of fungi that we know about including yeasts like candida, which we commonly associate.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
There are a variety of models that look at this. One model talks about how something is not addressed acutely and corrected that it can progress to a chronic state, and then the species of microorganisms change over time, and become more towards yeast. So, there's a lot of more depth understanding, but essentially, what I'm saying is that these microorganisms are essential in our recovery from any type of illnesses.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
So, essentially, what happens then is we have these, and I know when you read Béchamp, he calls them a foundational state of life, that they're almost completely indestructible, these microzymas.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
You could call them microorganism stem cells.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yes. Even though the conception in microbiology standard that we learn is that there's a strep and there's a listeria and there's an anthrax, and they're like monkeys and zebras, and they have nothing to do with each other. They're completely different organisms.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
What these people, we're talking Rife, we're talking Gaston Naessens, we're talking Béchamp, there's a few other ones I think through the years, actually said what happens is it depends on the conditions that they're founded. In other words, whether we're talking oxygen level or toxicity or pH or who knows, life can be complex. It might be an electrical field or something, but there's some generating purpose, and then the microorganisms essentially, I don't know if the word evolve, but become created almost based on the stimuli, which seems perfectly normal, except apparently in about 1890 if you said pleomorphism, you are not allowed to be published in a conventional medical journal from then on.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I think that holds true to the present then. This myth, really, it corresponds well with our understanding of how stem cells become differentiated cells because in our own body, when we're a developing fetus, all the cells or what they call pluripotential stem cells, which means they could become any kind of cell in your body, and they go through a process just like pleomorphism.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I mean, you could even call it that, really, where they slowly develop through [inaudible 00:44:14] in a continuous evolution and change of shape into becoming a kidney cell or a pancreatic islet cell or a skin cell or a squamous cell. There are a million different kinds, right? So, we're not really talking about anything different from that.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. So, where is a virus fit into that picture?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, so, it's a little bit challenging to talk about virus because you want to be careful about exactly what it is that you're talking about it.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
No kidding.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
The virus which means poison, but before there was ever an electron microscope where they could possibly what they're calling a virus these days, they already blamed the virus on several illnesses, specifically ones that they couldn't find bacteria associated with like polio.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Polio, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Right? So, there's one thing like that where there's this virus hunt by medical researchers trying to find something that causes diseases that they don't have another explanation that they're looking at. Then there's also what has come out of the bacteria algae bacteria with bacteria phages. Bacteria phages or bacteria eaters, they're called, and I think that term is actually a misnomer is considered a model for viruses. In fact, the original genetic sequences of viral genes were garnered from bacteria phages because bacteria phages, I think most objectively, exists when you have artificial conditions on bacteria mostly.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, you are talking about how bacteria exist in nature, and one of the things is you never see an isolated variety of bacteria, species of bacteria in nature. There are always dozens or even hundreds of different types of bacteria mixed together growing right in the same community, and they all exchange genetic information with each other. It's really only in the laboratory that scientists separate out the species and try to grow a pure culture bacteria.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
They're capable of doing this, but the bacteria are not healthy. They're under stress in this situation. If you add more stress to the situation, you'll see the presence of these phages in the bacterial culture and you'll see the cells disappearing. The scientist that originally discovered this and called them that-

Dr. Tom Cowan:
When you say the cells disappear, you mean the bacterial cells disappear.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Bacterial cells disappear and phages appear to be eating them. I think that this was a bit misinterpreted because one of the main aspects is that in the modern mainstream medical science, they only look at dead things under a microscope. They don't look at living things. When you observe dead things, it's very hard to take those observations and be sure that you can describe behavior that resulted in that.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I mean, imagine trying to learn about human ritual behavior from examining cadavers of humans. It would be impossible.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Right. I often say that the fundamental problem with Western science was we wanted to learn how to help frogs and the first thing we did was kill the frog-

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Exactly.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
... which I can guarantee did not help that frog.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
It's funny these labs is in logic and common sense sometimes.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah, right.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, if you look at the dead bacteria under the microscope, you could see, "Oh, there's less bacterial cells overtime and more phages. They must be consuming the bacteria and reproducing." Another explanation is that they actually turn in to the phages.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. They're disintegrating.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Right. So, when bacteria are under environment stress in nature, when they're in a mixed culture, they turn into spores, generally speaking. The spores can withstand harsh environmental conditions, and then when they're right, the conditions return to normal, then they revert back into a living, growing state.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
When they're in the laboratory under artificial conditions, when the bacteria are stressed even more, they can be induced into phages. The bacteria phages are interesting scientifically because one is they've actually been shown clearly to exist. So, they take a bacteria culture, do certain things to induce phages, and then they can put it in a centrifusion, separate the bacterial cells from the phages, and then look under a microscope, an electron microscope because you need that level of magnifications, and see just wall to wall phages in your samples.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, you know it's pure and then another interesting thing is they have a very characteristic geometrical shape. So, they're not spherical particles. They are actually structured particles. They look a little bit like the Space Needle in Seattle. On Stanford website, they have great pictures, if anyone wants to look for themself.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Since these are pure particles, you can then basically characterize what chemicals are in the particles because you know it's only coming from that since it's pure. So, you can lyse the membrane and take the genetic material out, and then it will be in one intact piece, and people can sit end to end and say, "This is the genome of this," if it has a genome, and then you can look at the proteins and the membrane and have the membrane. You can do further chemical tests on it so you can know exactly how that thing is structured and what it is.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, they've been able to do this scientific methodology for other what they call viruses that are in single-celled organisms like amoeba and C-algae or some other examples, and many different species of bacteria, not just one. There are many different types of bacteria phages. I've even worked with them in the laboratory when I was in college. So, it's a pretty common thing.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I think your point there is this idea that you sometimes hear, well, it's so complicated to isolate, purify, and characterize. It's actually not true.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
No, not at all.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
It's just part of normal bacterial phage research, and that's what you do.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, even before they could look under the microscope, they already were able to separate out what they thought were viruses from bacteria and other organisms by filtering. You can go back to turn at a century papers on viruses and they basically took some disease tissue from a person or an animal and filtered all the cells out and then it was basically toxic, and it could, if they gave it to some other animal the right way, could sometimes cause illness.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, they said, "Well, there must be a virus in there," but they didn't know what it was, but they knew they would separate it out. So, the first thing you could do is just put in samples through a filter because virus particles or what they say they are is so much smaller than any other type of cell, right? You could separate it from any other type of cell, bacteria, fungi, mammal cells, human cells just by filtering it.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, that would be an obvious thing that you can do and that's not full purification, but this is something that you could do in an hour or two in a laboratory. It's not complicated, right? We've done some things in our kitchen sometimes.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, then the next step is after you filter it is that you do what they call density gradient centrifugation. Centrifuge is just a fast spinning thing. You put it in a test tube in a medium that has a density gradient because the spinning separates things by density. All things of the same density will basically be in a little tight band on the test tube, and then you can take a syringe or a pipe head and take that and then do experiments on it.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
It may take a little practice like how long do you run the centrifuge, which filter to use, do you filter it more than once. Of course, all those things, it's harder when you're in the lab to do things than theoretically, but we're talking about technology that's been around for a long time. Centrifuge is not a new high tech device and either is a filter, right? They were able to filter things over 100 years ago.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, why aren't they doing these basic steps when they do science related to viruses that they say cause disease? They did try to do that when they started off, but what happened is that what they observed was there was no predominant particle that was there that was identical to itself. There were mixtures of all kinds of debris and particles. They basically were about to give up before they got to these tissue culture experiments. I think you wanted to ask me about that, so I'll stop there.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah, but I think it's, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is one of the other things that I know Stefan Lanka always talks about the virology disproved itself is they did learn to filter and isolate and purify, and they had cultures maybe not of a pure single virus, but at least pure "viruses" or these bacteria phages, and then they would introduce those to normal animals who weren't sick and they couldn't make any of them sick. I mean, it was like, "All right. We did it. We did it the way we're supposed to. We have the thing we're looking for. We squirted it down a hamster and monkeys and breathe it into people's mouth, nothing happened. Let's go home and be farmers."

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Listen. With polio, it's unbelievable how to make an animal sick. They took basically dead babies who died of polio and ground up their brain and spinal cord in a blender and gave it to all these monkeys, and eventually, they had to inject it directly into the monkey's brain. If you inject anything into a monkey's brain, it will make them sick.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
They might herniate their brain stem.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
We didn't mention the word exosome today, but exosomes are also small particles that are about the same size as they say viruses are, and they're made by our own cells. When the same researchers that are unable to purify virus particles can purify exosome particles no problem. You look at those papers, they do the same procedures I described with filtering and centrifuge that they did for bacteria phages, and they're able to character the exosomes very well because they have a pure sample of it.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I happen to read the minutes of the 1973 Pasteur Institute Conference, and they actually are outlying the steps for how you would know that there's a new virus. It's basically exactly what you said filter and centrifuge and purify and characterize and it was very clear and doable, and they just don't do it. So, with that, how do they do a viral culture?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, it's very interesting and quite astonishing, but what they do is they take basically the raw sample from the sick person. So, they want to look at a virus that supposedly makes someone sick, right? So, they have a sick person and depending on what part of their body is sick, they take a tissue or a fluid from that part of the body.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, let's say it causes a lung infection. They would take lung fluid, okay? That is a very dirty sample because it has many, many things in it, many different kinds of cells, many different chemicals floating around in each of that material, et cetera. They don't filter that. What they do is they add that to a cell culture and the cell culture cells are generally not human cells. They are sometimes.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
There was one paper I saw with these lung cancer cells from a human, but they usually monkey kidney cells, that's the most common one, but these are commercially available cell culture that you could just buy.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Egg yolk stuffing.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Yeah. You could culture these things on egg yolk probably, but what they do in these virus experiments is that they use minimal growth media. So, in other words, just the basic amount of nutrition that the cells need to survive, not thriving level of nutrition.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Then they add usually bovine calf serum, so the blood product, a noncellular blood product from a baby cow, which can have lots of things, foreign proteins in it that could cause damage to a cell. Then they add antibiotics. They don't always specify which ones they add, but the reason is they say, well, they don't want any bacteria to contaminate the sample. I thought this was really interesting, Tom, because you're familiar with amphotericin-B, right?

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. They're so terrible.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Terrible, exactly, right? We know it's very toxic and it's like someone's about to die when they get amphotericin-B, and it's an antifungal antibiotic. One of the main toxicities it has is to the kidney. Well, they mixed it with kidney cells. So, what do you think might happen there, right? So, all the antibiotics that they mixed, they're all toxic to cells. Antibiotic means against life. Also, antibiotics are known to induce cells to make exosomes.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, there's the calf serum, there's the minimal nutrition, and then there's the toxic antibiotics, and there may be some other things like some buffers and things like that, but that's the main recipe. Then they add in this contaminated lung fluid from someone who's got pneumonia in with that cell culture.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Now, then they observed the cell culture for several days, and they're looking for what they call cytopathic effects. So, in other words, it's nonspecific damage to the cells. Now, of course, if you mix a cell culture with a bunch of toxic things, and by the way, there are many things that could be toxic in that lung fluid as well from a sick individual.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
It's not that surprising that you'll see damage to the cells. When cells undergo damage, they behave in predictable ways. So, early on, they would basically send out alarm signals, and one of those would be by putting out exosomes, and we know in these cell cultures they're always going to do that because we gave them antibiotics and we know from other research that antibiotics plus cells gives you exosomes.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Then when the cells start degrading, they basically put off all these kinds of vesicles. They fragment. This process can go all the way to complete destruction of the cell, but the various different constituents get packaged up in the membrane as it pinches off and forms these little particles or vesicles.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
This is a protective mechanism to the body because if the cells release all the contents into your circulation, they would damage other parts of your body. So, maintaining them in these little vesicles as part of the dying process is a helpful thing.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Basically, what they do is that they look under the microscope at all these particles in the damaged tissue and they find one that they say is the virus, and then they show a picture of that, but what they don't do is they don't show pictures of the other particles or the exosomes and say, "Oh, here's where we found an exosome and here's where we found a virus particle, and here's how we can tell one is one and one is the other."

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
They also don't then take that cell culture mismatch and do the filtering and centrifuge and purify it out of that. So, you never see a picture from the microscope where the entire visual field of the slide is virus particles, and they all look identical, right? In fact, even when they write about the sizes, sometimes they write that the particles range in size more than double.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Imagine if you say, "Well, okay, some humans are as short as four feet." Sorry. "Some humans are six feet and some humans are 12 feet," right? Range is from six to 12 feet. Most animals don't have that much of a range in their size, but all these things, it's like you'd expect to find something that is homogeneous.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Right, uniform.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Uniform, right? That's not what they're seeing.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
To me, because as you know I'm always thinking analogies and metaphors that the thing that's so interesting about the process of viral culture is the way that a viral culture is done to produce the cytopathic effect is basically starving and poisoning the tissue-

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Absolutely.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
... which is not unlike how people get sick. You starve. In fact, it's like we learned. To me, what that proves is if you take a tissue and you want to damage it or kill it or an organism basically starve and poison it and you got a really good shot at hurting it.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Exactly. I can just hear an indoctrinated virologist giving you a counterargument. Well, we're just making the cell more vulnerable to the virus so that we can highlight the virus effects.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yes. Right, except that why don't you do a control and just put saline and purified virus with a healthy, nourished, unpoisoned tissue and see what happens?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Yeah. Well, that's an excellent point, and that is Stefan Lanka right now is trying to raise funds to actually do a negative control experiment. It's not trivial because you'd have to do really two negative controls. One, where you add saline instead of the lung fluid, but there should be another one, where you have the lung fluid of a healthy individual that you add to the culture.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
All right. Let's finish with one more thing, which is you hear a lot about, yes, that they have the entire genome of this virus. First of all, I mean, again, I have an analogy. It's like if I said, Andy, there's a flying saucer over your head right now, and you might say, "Tom, how do you know that?"

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I would say, "Well, I hear a whooshing noise through my microphone here."

Dr. Tom Cowan:
You would say, "Well, that doesn't actually prove."

Dr. Tom Cowan:
I was thinking you might say, "I see it over your head."

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Well, no, I don't see it, but I do see these little pieces of iron filing under your chair. Even though I've never actually seen or analyzed a flying saucer, I know that those iron filings could have only come from a flying saucer. You might think I'm a lunatic because, "How do you know they didn't come from the chair or an airplane or something like that?"

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, to take that to the next logical step, so if you already characterized flying saucers and knew that they existed or were able to study their structure and said that there's a specific iron alloy that they use. Then you can look at these iron filings and say, "This is the specific flying saucer iron alloy," right?

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Right.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Absolutely correct what you said. You can't take the iron filings and say, "From this, I prove that flying saucers exist." By trying to say that the genome proves the virus exists, that's exactly what you're doing because, well, where did this genome come from? If you didn't prove that there's a virus first, where did you get the genome from?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, it has to go in that logical progression, but they bypass that completely, and they do this in such a way. So, they might say that the genome sequence is discovered or that there's a genome for a virus, but what would be a much more accurate description would be that they discovered a theoretical computer model of a genome of a theoretical alleged virus.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yes.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Right? That would be accurate to describe it because what they do is like you'd say, they'll think, "How did they do the human genome project?" Now, they didn't mix humans with hundreds of other species of animals and put them in a blender and take out little fragments of DNA and put it together and say, "These are human," right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
What they did is they had ... We knew what a human was, and then we had a pure human and we took out some material from that pure human, and it was still contaminated, but we did some steps to make sure as we test it from 100 other humans and we found the same thing in each one, for example, or we validated it in some way.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
What they're doing with viral genomes is they're taking that sample like I discussed with the tissue culture like a lung fluid sample, and they're pre-identifying viral sequences. So, they say, "Okay. This is a coronavirus," or "This is a rhinovirus," or "This is a lentivirus," whatever they think they're looking for. They go to a computer database, which contains other sequences that they've determined in the same manner, by the way, and they developed small PCR probes from those sequences so that from a library, basically.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
They say, "Okay. We know this is a sequence from another similar virus. So, let's find if this sequence is present in this lung fluid sample."

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
What they do is they take dozens or maybe hundreds of these primers to start with and then whatever they identify, they pull out little fragments that have that part of the sequence and then have another sequence after it, right? These fragments might be 200 to 300 bases long, and then they sequence those, and then they make primers based on those sequences to find, well, a piece that would attach to it and they make a hole, what they call a CDNA library of fragments like this. Okay?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Now, on one paper I looked at, they had over 20,000 fragments of genetic material. So, very different from starting with an intact organism, pulling out the intact genome in one piece or in one chromosome pieces, depending on the organism, and then being able to know exactly you maybe can break it into smaller pieces per sequencing, but you know exactly what goes where because you started with the hole.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
In this case, you're starting with pieces. So, you have 20,000 fragments that are 200 to 300 bases long and the genome is allegedly 30,000 bases long. So, a lot of these fragments, and there's overlap and there's gaps and such. When they sequence all these fragments, then they put them into a computer program and the computer program basically solves the puzzles and puts them into one piece.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
There's, of course, errors because there are gaps where there's not a continuous sequence. Then there's also, how do you put it together? How do you know which ends match up with which? Even if you do a jigsaw puzzle, you know there are some of those pieces that they are almost a perfect match, but when you put it in there, you got to use just a little bit of force so you know it's not right, right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, how do you know that the computer is not doing that? How do they fill in the gaps? Well, they fill in the gaps. They go back to the library of sequence, try to find a sequence that's closed, and then just extrapolate it in there, just fill it in from basically their imagination.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
So, then they have after all this number crunching, then they may need a computer to do this because if they had people trying to do this by hand, they'd probably be working for 10 years before they could put it together. Then they get something and they publish it and they say, "This is the genome."

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. Got it. All right. I'm going to let you go. Any final words you have for our audience? Just a word of advice, encouragement, anything. Maybe in the justice realm.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, I always say don't take my word for it because I may be a meticulous researcher, but I'm still prone to making mistakes. So, look at other sources. Try to make your own decisions about things. I definitely think that's really important, and just want to emphasize that learning about this stuff and being open to new ideas I feel is very critical at this point in time because we're in the midst of major, major societal change at every level, right?

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
I mean, almost all of it is very oppressive, and it's all rooted in this medical manipulation. So, if we are stuck in a dogmatic view of our health and the medical system, we're going to continue to be vulnerable to this kind of medical tyranny, medial martial law, health technocracy, whatever word you want to use to describe it.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
My goal is to really try to educate people so that they're not vulnerable to that way of being manipulated any longer, and allow them to basically stay as free people as much as possible.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Great. All right, Andy. I so appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Well, it's definitely my pleasure, Tom, and congratulations on your new venture here speaking to the people on your platform.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Yeah. Okay. We will send you a copy of the new book, The Contagion Myth, as soon as I comes out.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
Awesome.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
All right, Andy. Take care.

Dr. Andrew Kaufman:
All right. You, too, Tom. Thanks.

Dr. Tom Cowan:
Okay. Thank you. Bye-bye.